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Why won’t any mainstream scientists test for carbon-14 in dinosaur bones?
I’ve Googled it and I couldn’t find any mainstream museums, universities or research facilities that have C14 tested the bones. I know they say that they are too old to have any C14 in them, but a few non-mainstream scientists claim when they test them, they always show enough C14 in them to indicate they are less than 40,000 years old (according to the claims).
Since the bones are only partially fossilized and have soft tissue in them as was discovered by Dr. Mary Schweitzer years ago, just like partially fossilized mammoth bones, it would seem like they would also be good candidates to C14 test. The tests are relatively inexpensive ($250), so if for no other reason, ...
... I would think some museum or university would test them just to dispel the myth that they are only tens of thousands of years old as some of these other testers claim. Scientists are supposed to be about getting at the truth, so why not get to the truth about what really happens when you C14 test dinosaur bones?
Update for Smeghead. So are you saying that those other testers are simply lying? They are saying that they detect C14 when they really haven't? Mainstream scientists have in the past performed tests to expose errors, lies and myths. Isn't that what Galileo did by climbing to the top of the tower of Pisa and dropping the two balls? Why won't they do it again this time? The test are relatively very inexpensive.
At one time they thought dino bones were too old to have soft tissue in them. Obviously they were wrong. Could they be making the same mistake to think they are too old to have C14 in them? A simple test would answer the question. Do you think they are afraid of the answer?
Update for amania. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but at one time Pasteur and Hubble were considered "quacks" because of their unorthodox findings, so I'm no so sure such a moniker is a pejorative. Is C14 testing that faulty? It seems when it is used on the bones of mammoth and giant sloths, it works just fine, but when it comes to dino bones, its readings are always off and it is just useless. How does the test know to work right for humans, but not hadrosaurs? ...
... Do you know if there are any dino bones that haven't been C14 contaminated so as to give a proper result?
Update for LWR. Dino bones have organic tissue in them. That's old news. Why are you bringing that up? That's what the other testers are testing, and finding C14 in it. So are you saying that dino bones are so old that they shouldn't have any C14 in them, but they do because they are so old they get contaminated with C14?
C14 testing is used to determine age. If there is a conflict with a C14-test-derived age and another test-derived age, how do you know the problem isn't with the other test-derived age? It seems like you are saying that C14 is a faulty test and only works if it gives an age that is about what the tester thinks it should be. If that is the case, how does one answer a "Quack" who says other radiometric tests are faulty because they don't give an age he or she thinks it should be?
Anyway, is that real science to NOT test for stuff that most scientist think is already settled science? If so, should Galileo, Pasteur, Hubble and Schweitzer be condemned for doing just that?
Update for Andymanec. "That would be an inappropriate test"? I believe that was basically the same verbiage used for decades when people asked about testing for soft tissue in dinosaurs. They were too old to have soft tissue, thus "that would be an inappropriate test". The test is $250, chump change in the research world. Historically speaking, scientists have been pilloried, threatened or fired if they do anything that might question evolution theory. ,,,
... I talked to a PhD research biologist at Rice University myself who confirmed the harassment she would receive if she questioned the theory. In a "CBS 60 Minutes" interview, Dr. Mary Schweitzer described the fear of reprisal she initially felt when she discovered her soft tissue evidence. Therefore I wonder if "an inappropriate test" is simply a mantra to keep one's job. I wouldn't want you to get fired. Thanks for your insights.
Redeemed, if what you are saying is true, that the mainstream scientists won't C14 test because it isn't reliable, then why do they routinely test mammoth, giant sloth and just about any other fossil bones except for dino bones?
7 Antworten
- ?Lv 7vor 6 JahrenBeste Antwort
Because it is NOT that reliable, For example, variations in greenhouse effects and solar radiation change how much carbon-14 a living organism is exposed to, which drastically changes the “starting point” from which a radiocarbon dating test is based. Likewise, different living things absorb or reject carbon-14 at different rates. Two plants that died at the same moment, but which naturally contained different levels of radiocarbon, could be dated to drastically different times. Modern effects such as fossil fuel burning and nuclear testing have also changed atmospheric carbon-14 levels and in turn change the “starting point” for a radiocarbon test. All in all, setting the parameters of the carbon-14 test is more of an art than a science.
Contamination and repeatability are also factors that have to be considered with carbon dating. A tiny amount of carbon contamination will greatly skew test results, so sample preparation is critical. Even then, a large proportion of radiocarbon dating tests return inconsistent, or even incoherent, results, even for tests done on the same sample. The explanation given for these outliers is usually “contamination.” Inconsistent results are another reason why multiple samples, multiples tests, and various parallel methods are used to date objects.
Due to all these factors, it’s common for carbon dating results of a particular sample, or even a group of samples, to be rejected for the sole reason that they don’t align with the “expected” results. That’s not unusual in science, so far as it goes, but the relationship between assumptions and interpretations must be kept in mind. At best, it needs to be acknowledged. At worst, it can make carbon dating circular and self-confirming, though there are other means of dating that can reduce this risk.
In short, carbon dating is as useful as any other technique, so long as it’s done properly and the results are objectively interpreted. It is not, however, an inherently error-free or black-and-white method for dating objects.
- andymanecLv 7vor 6 Jahren
That would be an inappropriate test. Fossilization replaces the organic materials in a sample with minerals. Even if there was detectable C14 left, it would no longer be present in the known ratios that makes C14 dating possible. This is also why Schweitzer's samples can't be C14 dated. She didn't find preserved, intact, soft tissue. She found fossilized remains that were able to be demineralized and rehydrated - and more than likely contaminated with modern bacteria. C14 dating isn't an all-purpose test... like ANY test in science, it works under very specific conditions.
So yes, simply put, people claiming to have valid C14 results for fossils are lying. This is also why it's not a big priority to debunk them. It's not like C14 dating a fossil sample will give you definite, this-is-old results. The test will be utterly unreliable, since it's so far outside of the conditions that it was designed to test. The original claims are also being pushed by creationinsts, which means that accuracy and intellectual honesty aren't even on the list of priorities. Their claims have ALREADY been disproved a thousand times over, yet they keep coming back. Throwing any more money at debunking those claims would be a complete waste.
- vor 6 Jahren
Why won’t atheist evolutionary scientists test dinosaur bones for carbon 14?
Carbon 14 dating can be done only on ORGANIC material derived from living things.
Dinosaur bones tend to be heavily mineralized after the tens of, and hundreds of millions of years they have been in the earth and are therefor not suitable for Carbon 14 dating. Furthermore, during that long period, some of the minerals entering the dinosaur bones can be of radioactive elements that would throw off the reading.
The mammals you mentioned lived relatively recently, only a few thousands of years ago, and their bones tend not to be heavily mineralized, so their bones contain enough organic material to be carbon 14 dated.
The interior of the dinosaur bones containing the "soft" tissue was protected by the mineralized outer part.
Furthermore, the tissue was not soft in situ, but became soft only after it was chemically treated.
Added
Not carbon 14. There are other radioactive elements existing in soil that could be part of the minerals replacing the organic material.
And, aside from the current topic, I have a question for you. If creationism is true, and there is evidence for it, why do creationist sites and books have to resort to deceit, misrepresentation and outright lies to prove their case?
Proving that there is a problem with dinosaur dating, even if it were valid, would not prove ancient Hebrew myths any more than it would prove any other ancient myths.
There is no evidence for ancient Hebrew myth. That is why the promoters of creationism are forced to resort to deceit and lies.
- SmegheadLv 7vor 6 Jahren
Because that would be a ludicrously inappropriate test to do on those samples.
"Dinosaur bones" are fossils. They're made of ROCK, not organic matter. Carbon dating is only useful with previously living material. Fossilization replaces all that stuff with minerals.
Even if the organic material WERE still present, the age of the fossils (as determined by dozens of other dating methods) means that the ratio of carbon 14 to carbon 12 would be far too small to be measured.
When you use the wrong method on the wrong samples, your results are going to be garbage. That's how these charlatans get the idiotic "results" that you refer to in your question. It's like claiming that the speedometer in your car is 100 mph off, so that speedometers are useless, without mentioning that you took your test speedometer out of the car and battered it with a sledgehammer first.
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- amania_rLv 7vor 6 Jahren
Those non mainstream scientists are quacks. You can calculate how many half-lives of C14 are in 70 million years and from that how many atoms of C14 would be left. Any C14 in dinosaur bones will either be contamination or as a result of radio active decay of other elements.
UPDATE. Do the sums, then you will see how ridiculous carbon dating fossils millions of years old is. Of course, they can come up with some alternative theory that stands up to independent examination that others can verify but to simply attempt to carbon date dinosaurs and claim they are 1000s years old adds nothing to science.
- RicardoLv 7vor 5 Jahren
Because they have functional brain cells. Dinosaur bones are millions of years old and C14 is good for only 45,000 years or so.
- M SLv 7vor 6 Jahren
why you answer my question when you do not leave a way to remark on your answer?
as for your question: